Margot Ferrick, Stephen Z Hayes, & Raighne talk over hot chocolate after wrapping Compact 001. Recorded in January 2020, Chicago.
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The Internet is Yours
Margot
I could see you married to John Oliver.
Raighne
Yeah, he could be my husband.
Margot
Right? Couldn't you see him with John Oliver?
Stephen
Uh I guess, like,— how would the dynamic be?
Margot
Well, yeah..
Raighne
Yeah, I suppose it wouldn't work out.
Margot
Ohh ho ho [laughing]
Stephen
I feel like he would be very critical of you or something.
Raighne
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
Margot
You might be very critical of him.
Raighne
That's true, that's true.
Stephen
Raighne would be be critical of him in his diary.
Raighne
Yeah. {pretends to write in a notebook}
"Dear John.. If that's even your real name!”
Margot
Is it? It must be. Your fake name wouldn't be John…
I brought him up just because he had a — I was watching a clip about lethal injections and how they're like really bad..
Raighne
Damn
Stephen
In terms of like..
Margot
They're not painless at all.
Raighne
Horrible, horrible.
Margot
I think they give you— three shots usually. And one of them is um,
Raighne
Isn't one of them not even approved by— ?
Margot
Yeah, there's some.. there's like some weird thing. I don't know. But um the first thing I think like— and I thought it would be an anesthesia kinda— or something that would like numb — or anesthesia doesn't numb.. or maybe it does. But anyway. I thought it would be a painkiller. But it's actually just a sedative. And um, I guess the effect would be the equivalent of having a drink basically. And the next shot is um
Raighne
Pure pain.
Margot
Yeah, I think
Raighne
Jesus
Margot
Or well okay, so— the first one makes you like, very slightly drunk feeling and then the next one actually makes it so that you can't actually move your body in any way. Um, and I think the third shot is actually the poison. And the poison itself is extremely painful
Raighne
Jesus
Margot
People have described it as feeling like there's just fire pumping through your veins.
Stephen
Described it.. Have people experienced it, without it killing them?
Margot
Um, I don't know, I mean, I think I think most of these are, like, botched in a way. People do end up dying anyway, just because it's like,
Raighne
so painful.
Margot
Yeah.
Raighne
Jesus
Stephen
they're botched, like—
Margot
um, just in terms of
Stephen
like they-- it didn't work?
Margot
I mean, they succeed in killing the person eventually I think. Um, but I think, they're botched in the sense of like, it took a really long time for the person to die. Instead of a few minutes-- it’ll take 45 minutes or something.
Raighne
Ah, jeez
Stephen
So they're describing it as it's happening. Or.
Margot
No, they can't talk. I guess I don't know like who's the person who knows that it feels like fire going through your veins. Like I don't know who that person is. But I guess the consensus or the medical knowledge says it's very very painful. And then you can't talk and you can't move your body at all
Raighne
Sounds like hell.
Margot
So you can't say anything
Raighne
Jesus..
Margot
But you're slightly drugged I guess in a way. And I guess like uh, when they were trying to figure this out they had this one guy who was sort of in charge of figuring out the injections or like specifically what anestheia to use. And it just turned out like I don't think he was quite a medical doctor. And it also turned out that he had never done any um, he had never been involved in any research on any sort of anesthetic — ever? I think he had to go to court and uh they said that he brought uh, basically like printouts from uh drugs.com — to show these researchers something . He would reference Wikipedia.
Raighne
Jesus
Margot
"I think this is the thing that does the thing we want to do." Like it would be like if they told one of us to figure out the injections and then,
Raighne
Yeah sure, I know what the internet is!
Margot
Like you just go to wikipedia..
Raighne
Yeah jesus
Stephen
Yeah.. it would have been like— just before we filmed, I was watching YouTube videos on how to set up the lighting.
Margot
Yeah. Yeah
Raighne
Yeah, yeah, jesus
Stephen
wow, horror.
Margot
Yeah. I'm suprised that it's that bad.
Stephen
I'm interested in, do you know Temple Grandin ? An autistic engineer. She—
Margot
I know that name, but I don't—
Stephen
She designed the modern, uhhhh slaughterhouse
Margot
Woah
Stephen
There's a more gentle word for that but uh, the way it's designed is that it has a spiral enclosure that they release cows into
Margot
mm hmm
Stephen
It used to be that like, the whole process of getting the cows into being killed, had them constantly crammed and scared. She identified what scared them, which were like shadows and movement in their periphery vision and stuff. So the walls are now built high around them. And then like the spiral shape-- cows have this tendency to try to go back to where they came from. And the spiral form sorta tricks them into thinking that's what they're doing.
Margot
Mmm. Yeah.
Stephen
Uhhh. And then yeah, at the end they walk through a chute that has a light at the end. They follow the light and a door drops behind each so that the previous cow doesn't see.. when they go up an incline. and that's ah, yeah.. where they get shot with the airgun.
Margot
Yeah. Like the thing that uh, the villain of No Country For Old Men uses?
Stephen
Yeah.
Raighne
Right
Stephen
Yeah. I mean, I guess that would probably be more humane. Uh
Raighne
Yeah,
Stephen
She's said that she’s also looked at how they execute human beings and she knows how to fix it so that it isn’t painful. But she won't be involved with killing humans..
Margot
Seems totally reasonable.
Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
She apparently figured this stuff out because she identifies with the way that cows uh perceive the world.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
She says her perceptual mode is similar?
Margot
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of sad.
Raighne
Oh yeah
Margot
But maybe it's not.. Because ... if you have to kill cows you should figure out the best way to do it.
Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
for the cows.
Stephen
I like that like the reason that she visited the slaughterhouse was that she was interested in death.
Margot
Yeah
Stephen
And so that was like the site that she could visit to think about it— it reminds me of the videos you showed us. A little bit. Uh, designing the knife based on the knocking over a picture frame..
Margot
Yeah, where it's like, like, maybe this one idea led you to like, design a slaughterhouse. "I just wanted to understand death and now I—"
Stephen
She designed a hugging machine. Too.
Margot
Really?
Stephen
For herself. Yeah
Margot
oh,
Stephen
you probably would recognize her
Margot
is she, is she like, not that old, or something? er
Stephen
Uh I don't think she is that old.
Margot
Mm
Stephen
or I think she's probably in her 60's.
Margot
Because like, when you were talking about the slaughterhouses? When you said Temple Grandin, I imagined someone who was contemporary and then when you talked about the slaughterhouses, suddenly I was like: Oh, this must be like, a long time ago.
Stephen
Mm mm,
Margot
Like my mind jumped back to like uh, I don't know, like the 50s or something.
Stephen
Yeah, I'm not sure when they were designed, actually. Now, she's mostly— well, I mean, I think she still does engineering work — But she does lectures.
Margot
Hmm. I should look her up. She sounds
Stephen
She's interesting.
Raighne
Yeah.
Stephen
She says her mind is like Google Images.
Raighne
Wow
Stephen
She says, when you uh, if like, you say ‘roof’, to her, she doesn't have a general sense of ‘roof’ as a concept. Instead she visualizes, scrolls through, like every roof she's seen -- a catalog.
Margot
That makes sense. Is that like, um kind of like what autism is like, in general?
Stephen
That's like, one way, it's.. when she speaks about it..
Margot
Mmhm.
Stephen
There's something about the shifting meaning of autism, and the spectrum idea..
Margot
yeah
Stephen
It includes people who perceive the world that way… It seems somewhat hazy now or something.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
That's like one of the things that you could say indicates autism, but um, some people don't experience it.. The hugging thing relates to autism, it's like the weighted blanket. Yeah, comforting through pressure or weight. But maybe not being comfortable with people providing that. Yeah.
Margot
That makes a lot of sense, I think.
Stephen
There are all these words that like, that are just specific to autism. Like uh echolalia, which is a tendency to repeat things, like quote things without like, it relating to uh anything.
Margot
Raighne's like.. (turn to Raighne)
Margot
Do you feel that's what you do?
Raighne
Oh yeah, I'm just like, cool. Uhhh. I'm like.. holy shit that's like 90% of like how I interact with humans.
Stephen
And stimming.
Margot
hm.
Stephen
And visual stimming.
Margot
What's visual stimming?
Stephen
Visual stimming is like— like um, it's a watching activity
Margot
mmhm
Stephen
there’s a lot of video— well there are lots of YouTube videos
Margot
Oh, OK.
Stephen
"satisfying to watch" videos or whatever
Margot
Yeah, but I don't think that's a sign..
yeah, like, but it's just like. It is satisfying to watch...
Stephen
Yeah,
Margot
I feel like that's such a-- that's such a thing with a lot of people now though. Because like even on Instagram there’s so many short videos of people-- people who make slime. And they just have a ton of videos of their hand going into a bucket of slime or just like-- slime like being snipped with scissors or cut.
Stephen
mmhm
Margot
Or two slimes mixed together. Like two different textures of slime being like poured over each other um.. or objects going into slime. Like there's so much of that and I feel like it's like.. like I almost..
Stephen
[sneezes]
Margot
Bless you. I kind of just associate it with um like a really normal thing to do if you're a teen girl.
Stephen
mmmmm mhm
Margot
Which I think is interesting.
Stephen
Yeah. I like this like idea— not technical so much or— but the idea of— the notion of Silicon Valley as this this hub of autism.
Margot
mmhm
Stephen
Which has like, um, which is like, well, I mean it's real.. that is, a lot of programmers in Silicon Valley will have children that'll be more obviously autistic. It seems like communication technologies tend to be invented by people who don't communicate very well
Margot
yeah.
Stephen
Alexander Graham Bell — bad communicator.
Margot
Yeah, yeah!
Stephen
And uh
Margot
Didn't they like um,
Stephen
same with uh.. Mark Zuckerberg
Margot
Yeah
Stephen
He took classes to seem more human
Margot + Raighne
Yeah, yeah
Stephen
Like it was such ah — I felt for him, in the video, I guess.
Raighne
Yeah
Stephen
Like “I understand.”
Raighne
Yeah
Stephen
you could tell he was kind of— counting out the seconds he should be looking at someone.
Raighne
Yeah.
Stephen
“I’ll look at this guy for 18 seconds, then look at the person next to him. I’ll look at this guy talk about his daughters phone, and how he doesn’t understand what she’s doing on it.
Now I'll look over here— now I'll drink water.”
Margot + Raighne
Yeah
Stephen
People made a video compilation of all the times he drank water..
Margot
Yeah, the water seemed very deliberate.
Stephen
mmm
Margot
But then I feel like that is what I would do, if I were in that position.
Stephen
Yeah
Margot
Like: "it is appropriate for me now to take a swig of water?"
Raighne
Right, right. "Has it been long enough?"
Raighne
“Is it my turn?”
Stephen
“What if I drink too much?”
Raighne
[laughter]
Margot
“Oh, I’ll risk it. But, what if I run out of water?”
Margot + Stephen + Raighne
[laughter]
Margot
“I will still bring it to my lips.”.
Raighne
“It's probably acceptable to drink no water from an empty glass at least two or three times.”
Stephen
“I want to lick my lips but then they'll see my tongue.”
Margot + Raighne
[laughter]
Raighne
“Is it okay for strangers to see your tongue? or is it .. not socially acceptable?”
Margot
“Maybe it's ok among friends.”
Raighne
“Yeah, are these my friends?”
Margot + Stephen + Raighne
[laughing]
Stephen
“How many hours does it take to become a friend?”
Raighne
[laughing]
Stephen
“is it, not that many?”
Margot
I feel like there's a lot of videos of him doing various other things to sort of appear more human.
Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
Like there's that thing where he — what was it, he like
Stephen
Starts grilling things?
Raighne
Ah Jesus Christ.
Stephen
“I need to grill.”
Raighne
[Laughing]
Stephen
I think in that he just.. he like tries to make these overly casual remarks.
Margot
Oh no.
Stephen
“I'm gonna throw some mean meat on the on the grill.”
Margot
Oh no.
Stephen
And it doesn't quite uh land.
Raighne
I heard that he only eats meat that he kills.
Margot
Really?
Stephen
Yeah. I heard that about the meat too.
Raighne
Oh I thought you were saying ‘me too.’ Like, trying to say that this was like his '#metoo' moment
Margot + Stephen + Raighne
[laughter]
Margot
What the fuck. And he like uses the hashtag. It make no sense. It's like the most alienating and inappropriate thing..!
Stephen
Um, early in #metoo, um. There was this rainbow in LA a lot of people were posting
Margot
Uh huh
Stephen
the rainbow in the neighborhood.
Margot
Yeah,
Stephen
I posted the rainbow and uh with the hashtag #metoo..
Margot
Ohh.
Stephen
I didn't know.
Margot
Ohhh Oh no oh no [laughter]
Stephen
It still worked or whatever. People liked it.
Margot
That's very Larry David.
Stephen
Larry what?
Margot
Larry David.
Raighne
[laughter] oh fuck like "I also saw it. “What, you can't say 'me too' anymore?" [laughter]
Margot
Oh no no fuck. so dark ..
Raighne
[laughing uncontrollably]
Margot
Ei yi yi.
Stephen
Oh so, uh, the idea that, like, like the internet spreading autistic tendencies.
Margot
Oh right.
Stephen
Like, uh having trouble maintaining eye contact is like part of
Margot
yeah
Stephen
the diagnosis..
Margot
It's also a cultural thing too, isn't it?
Stephen
Mmhm
Margot
I feel like it's very, it seems like it's very Western to expect like eye contact with people out of like, respect.
Stephen
Mmhm.
Margot
I don't think it's like that in a lot of Asian countries. And.. like, um, like, once there was this guy, randomly downtown. He seemed like he was a student. Um. I don't know where he was from, but it seemed like he was from an African country. I don't know which one because I didn't talk to him that long. But like, he was trying to ask me for help like for directions.
Stephen
Mmhm.
Margot
I was trying to help him. But then like, as he was talking to me, he absolutely refused to make eye contact or like, look at my face at all. And for the longest time I was like, what's wrong with me? Why won't you look at me? Like what's wrong with me!? I mean, I didn't say that.. I kept trying to make eye contact..
Stephen
yeah yeah
Margot
with him because I was like?
Raighne
Like "Hey,"
Margot
I was like, what's wrong with me?
Raighne
Yeah
Margot
Is it that bad? And then I realized, like, oh, it's probably just like, because, wherever he's from it's considered really confrontational or something to make eye contact. Because there's, there's a lot of places like that where you're just like, you know-- he was actually probably being respectful by avoiding my eyes or something.
Stephen
Yeah. Um.
Margot
But um within that—
Stephen
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, like, they don't like usually look at like brain scans when they diagnose autism, its observation, reportage.. Like, what is illness if it's fine? What happens if like, the culture changes?
Margot
Yeah. They don't do—... They don't do brain scans? Like,
Stephen
usually not.
Margot
Huh. That's interesting.
Stephen
It's just like reportage and observation.
Raighne
Yeah, maybe in the future if you're not autistic.. something's wrong.
Stephen
Autistic people look at images differently — where they look at the uh
Margot
Yeah
Stephen
They'll tend to look at whatever's more centered in a photograph over any faces in a photograph.
Margot
Yeah,
Stephen
Less socially hierarchical perceptual mode.
Raighne
Yeah.
Margot
Mm.
Stephen
Which is interesting.
Margot
Yeah. It is really interesting
Stephen
Less human centered.
Raighne
Mmhmm.
Stephen
Some precedent there, or something appealing, I don't know..
Margot
It’s like you were saying earlier, like a lot of people who wind up like developing this technology, like tend to like be on the spectrum. . .
Stephen
yeah,
Margot
Maybe, I don't know, maybe it's too generalized.
Stephen
It makes it easier to communicate to have like this thing, this in-between— uh, thing.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
I don't know. Thinking about DeviantArt? I don't know, it seems.
Margot
Oh yeah. DeviantArt's great. they changed it now though.
Stephen
Is it, oh. In what way? Is is still kind of the same people? like the same uh—
Margot
I think, well — I mean [laughing]
Stephen
like is it still, uh
Margot
Is it still like, uh, freakier? [laughter]
Stephen
Yeah. I guess like, yeah,
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
Fandom..
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
Furry..
Margot
I really respect furries, I wish people didn't shit on them so much. I feel like
Stephen
mm mm mm
Margot
I've been actually spending a lot more time on Reddit lately. And I feel like I actually get kind of sad like— deeply sad — when furries are treated as sort of the people that are like universally…
Stephen
'furry' as an insult.
Margot
yeah, or it's like it's acceptable for you to post a picture of someone holding a gun to a furry's..
Raighne
oh jesus
Margot
Oh, I mean it's like a staged photo.
Raighne
Yeah..
Margot
But it's like, the text will be like "the only.. the only kind of murder that's fine is--"
Raighne
oh my god.
Margot
Crazy right? I mean furries are great. I feel like that's such a cool concept that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with beastiality or whatever freaks people out um, but deviantart is still pretty freaky. They changed the background color finally.
Stephen
it's not grey anymore?
Margot
No it's black. And then there's like a weird um, currency system. You could always sort of give people points. I don't remember what the points did but it was like some sort of thing that I think you had to pay for. And now you can buy DeviantArt currency and then send it to people to specifically commission them to do stuff for you. And then they're like, “ oh, well
Stephen
hmm
Margot
I shall accept 50 DeviantArt coins
To draw your tattoo.”
Stephen
mmhm mmhm mmhmm
Margot
Um, and then I think the person just gets money but you can't just send money directly. You have to buy this other money to give them.
Raighne
Wow
Raighne
Maybe that’s tied to teens. Not everybody has like a..
Margot
Oh, like a debit card.
Raighne
Yeah, yeah.
Margot
I would almost say that I think that there's not even that many young people on DeviantArt.
Raighne
It's all older people?
Stephen
Do you think it's people who grew up with it and stuck to it?
Margot
I don't even know if I think it's that. I feel like maybe I'm just thinking of all the freaky stuff that would be characterized as mature content. And I just feel like I associate that so much with Deviantart that I almost feel like teens would just use Instagram or something normal.
Stephen
mm
Margot
And Deviantart doesn't even have a good mobile app. I mean they do, but..
Raighne
Does Deviantart even have one?
Margot
Yeah, they do. I used to have it.
I was talking to someone there because I was kind of riffing off of these things that I saw on Deviantart. Which were these specific fetishes like conjoinment fetishes and stuff like that.
Stephen
Conjoinment?
Margot
Yeah, like a lot of it is just like conjoined twins. But then some of it is impossible. They make like three or four people connected together. Or a girl with seven heads and six boobs, or something, and 8 legs. But uh, I drew a picture kind of based on that. And then this person kept talking to me and they wanted me to draw more of that character and they kept asking these really specific questions about the character. Which was cool! But then I don’t know, I almost feel like I’m afraid to use that account again cuz that was like two years ago and I never drew the thing I said I was going to draw for them; not that there was any money involved.
Raighne
But like uh they give you this uh bit.. coin
Margot
Oh, they didn’t give me anything. “Bitch coin.” “Did they give you a bitch coin?”
Stephen
I like these things — ‘bases’? On deviant art.
Margot
Bases?
Stephen
Yeah, do you know those? They’re like… they’ll trace an anime character..
Margot
Like a doll, kinda?
Stephen
They trace an anime character and remove the hair and the clothing..
Margot
Yeah! Like pixels.. would you do it with pixels or?
Stephen
There are some pixelated ones but just as many are clean line illustration. And they just appear like these weird overgrown babies if you don’t touch them.
Margot
Yeah. Cuz they’re just like completely hairless
Stephen
Yeah and like de-sexed as well.
Raighne
Like Toad without his hat.
Margot
You like that? Is that what you’re into?
Raighne
Hey! you don’t tell anyone. I will -not- be blackmailed about this.
Margot
I actually would like to make things like that I think. There’s also, I feel like its not the same but its related, I’ve seen a lot of adoptables where…
Stephen
Adoptables— is that the idea that someone makes a character which someone else can have?
Margot
I think so but— yeah I think that’s it. Where its like “I make fairies and if you would like to adopt this specific fairy you will pay me $30 or something”
Stephen
It’d be cool to trace this specific fairy like getting like traded from hand to hand.
Margot
Yeah, yeah! But I guess I don’t — still don’t totally understand what you do. I think you get a download for some high res files of it. And I think its almost like the base idea where there are different outfits that you can layer onto the person. I don’t know, something like that. I saw this person who created this world where there are these little aliens that descended to earth— they were these anime chibi things that were always asleep and they had puffballs on their heads and they lived inside of these little compacts and that was how they got their nutrition and how they slept.
Stephen
Compact mirrors?
Margot
Yeah its was really cute. But the whole idea was you could adopt one. But I don’t know how it worked..
Stephen
You get ownership..
Margot
Like how.. I don’t know if you can display it in your profile somehow. People seemed really into those and they would pay this person to do that. But I don’t even understand what you’re doing, how people interact with your thing. It’s cool but I don’t know how it works.
Stephen
Maybe you should interview them.
Margot
Yeah maybe. I feel like they’d tell me to go away.
Stephen
Like…
Margot
Do you ever think about how.. like.. right now we’re talking about these people on DeviantArt .. who do these things that like I think are pretty strange or niche..
Stephen
You’re thinking about what they think of what you make.
Margot
Yeah they would probably not even, not at all even like it. And its like, we’re having this conversation and I’ve thought about these people a lot and its interesting. Like, that person will probably never think about me. Its just interesting.
Raighne
yeah
Margot
Because they don’t have the same..
Raighne:
Cultural references?
Margot
Yeah they don’t fucking care about the Ignatz. Which.. I don’t. But its not something that they have to roll their eyes at.
Stephen
Do you have the sense that… like, they fetishize things so directly — and communally sort of riff, and then there’s this other attitude where the fetish is at a certain level of distance, sort of out of sight, art’s… uh can’t articulate..
Margot
Yeah its kind of..
Stephen
Its difficult to say it without patronizing language.. which is unnecessary.
Margot
Maybe its even as simple as its good to remember that there’s a lot of people that don’t care or don’t know about the things that maybe we worry about. Which I don’t mean they don’t care in like a good way, but if I went to a comics show that was annoying or something I might be really neurotic and concerned about everyone because maybe this person might know who I am and might have this weird idea about me based on what they’ve seen online or what they think my work is, right? Um, and then there are just like all these names that everyone knows. But then, there are people out there.. like if I were to meet the person who does the compact adoptables or whatever, they would probably just see me as person, with no baggage attached to it because we’re not of the same..
Stephen
Tribe
Margot
Which is kind of refreshing. Or at least not like anxiety-inducing or destructive.
Stephen
Seeing each other as just both members of this group that you don’t relate to but aren’t critical of within .
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
Like “Oh you’re an art cartoonist, like all the other art cartoonists here.”
Margot
Right, you just do this thing that…like you do the furry thing.
Stephen
You do the furry thing
Raighne
Yeah yeah!
Margot
But I don’t know that you’ve actually had this falling out with this really big furry. Or you’ve been accused of copying this furry’s design then they tried to call you out.
Stephen
You don’t know enough to judge them.
Margot
Yeah because I can be like ‘I don’t know who any of those people are’.
Raighne
I don’t give a shit.
Margot
Or, I only give a shit if it effects you.
Stephen
It’d be interesting… just like a contemporary movie, where a character happens to be a furry. I don’t think I’ve seen that, have you? Like, maybe he dresses one time, or makes drawings.. Like, even a secondary character..
Margot
Yeah I really wish people would stop ganging up on furries as like this easy ..
Stephen
Yeah, I mean most things that people lob around online are frustrating. Youtube comments or Reddit comments. Like, writing as if none of them are individuals. They take an easy stance.
Margot
I’ve been getting really sick of Instagram because I don’t like the way I interact with it. It feels too mindless and I feel like I never see that much of the people I actually care about, or I don’t get to see them in a way that feels good. Um, and then I was like spending more time on Reddit and was like “this is way better”, because it feels more anonymous and you just have to type to people. Like I just have to type to people to interact with them, which is cool because when you upload something, no one knows who you are. But then I started realizing so many people will just go along with whatever they’re supposed to go along with. I used to follow this subreddit for a bit that was supposed to be people on Instagram who would like edit themselves in a way that was really obnoxious and really noticeable. Like people who’d make their boobs really huge in a way that was like— they went so far with it that the background was warped because of it.
Stephen
In like, a less self aware way, you think?
Margot
Yeah, yeah, it’s not like its your project and.. it’s not your artistic project, its not like you’re doing it ironically. Um and I noticed that people would start… like once someone posted this image of this Brazilian woman in a supermarket with her little girl. And I think this woman was just really toned and I think just had naturally really big boobs and also dressed in a way which was also pretty revealing. But, like to me it didn’t look like anything was edited at all. And she also had like— you know the shopping baskets where like part of it is curved in so you can hold it at your side without it like—
Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
She had one of those and the person who posted it was like, like the title was like “haha yeah gotta love those shopping baskets that just curve like that”
Raighne
wow
Margot Ferrick
And then everyone just like— everyone except maybe 2 or 3 people— were like “I can’t believe the image she’s creating! Why do people even want to look like this? What example is she setting for her little girl”
Stephen
“The children!”
Margot
People just weren’t thinking, at all. They just wanted to fit in. Which is like understandable.
Stephen
Yeah, That’s how I feel whenever I read a message board or something. Anytime there’s an alternate voice… feels like you can predict what’s going to happen
Margot
Which sucks. It makes me really distrust…
Stephen
People, out in the world?
Margot
Its not even that I think people are being malicious on Reddit in general. But I think a lot of people will tell anecdotes that don’t seem real or they’ll try to relate in a way.. that leaves you like “is this for real? or are you just trying really really hard to relate and this isn’t genuine at all”.
Stephen
Quora replies feel like that
Margot
Who?
Stephen
Quora? Do you know Quora?
Margot
No,
Stephen
it's like a website where someone will ask a question and there's people—
Margot
Oh Quora!
Margot + Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
I've never heard it said out loud.
Stephen
Oh, okay,
Margot
so that's why,
Stephen
yeah,
Margot
I didn't..
Stephen
makes sense. Uh.
Margot
Quora's weird.
Stephen
Yeah, it is weird. It's like, uh, it has this style — the top answers will be these anecdotes that end with a moral—
Margot
Mmhm. Yeah.
Stephen
And usually I can't quite follow. Like, I usually don't agree with the conclusion that they've reached.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
I get emails from them. I should unsubscribe. I think Quora tries to present itself as the smart area of the internet or something.
Margot
Yeah. [laughing]
Stephen
While in reality, a lot of it is just salacious.. it's like a confession
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
I get emails from them . whenever there's a superhero movie out. There'll be a lot of people trying to figure out the logistics of it. And that's kind of annoying. But sometimes I'll click it.
Margot
Like the um—
Stephen
Like, how did in, like in the Avenger movie — how come when he did the snap … How did this guy not die?
Margot
Oh god.
Stephen
And they go on to explain either through the movie or through their comics knowledge — and it'll be really long
Margot
Yeah, that sounds.. great.
Stephen
[laughing]
Margot
I don't know. I guess if I liked those movies I'd probably be doing that.
Raighne
Yeah, pleasure
Stephen
Tumblr was something. I'm talking to more Tumblr people now that tumblr almost died or whatever.
Margot
Oh really?
Stephen
Yeah, because I realized like I thought… the mutual thing was, almost just enough. We could just regard each other. Or whatever. But some people have disappeared now.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
And I didn't have any real contact with them — or email.
Margot
Yeah
I kinda find it hard to even check on Tumblr again. Um, I kinda wonder— I was trying to start a WordPress again, or I mean, blogger? or
Margot
Blogspot
Margot
And that actually felt really good. But I had no friends.
Stephen
How do people connect on that now?
Margot
Um, I think people can leave comments
Stephen
Is your blogspot writing? Long-form? Or images?
Margot
I only made like two posts on it. And it was just like whatever I wanted to post. Poetic reflections, and pictures I had found that I liked. Kind of like a Tumblr. I don't know. I feel like when I think back on a lot of the blogs that I really enjoyed, the ones that I'll go back to and might want to read through again.. There were a lot of people on Blogspot who had really really good blogs. A lot of them are dead now — the people aren't dead I mean, but the blogs are dead.
Stephen
LiveJournal had a bigger impact on me.
Margot
LiveJournal
Stephen
Yeah. Which is like, somehow more embarrassing than Blogger
Margot
I can't even remember using it anymore. Well. Like I can remember using it, but I can't remember the feeling of it you know? If that makes sense?
Stephen
Yeah,
Margot
Maybe I tried to like delete it from my brain or something — I feel like I didn't have that good of a time on Livejournal.
Stephen
I think I did, but it was incidental. Because I had some concentrated project maybe for the first time with drawing. And it happened to be on that platform. And then like, Yeah, I remember following a couple cartoonists over to Tumblr
Margot
Yeah. I remember that too. I remember it felt like a real exodus.
Stephen
It seemed better.
Margot
Yeah, Tumblr seemed awesome.
Stephen
I feel like it did something to my brain. Over the years.
Margot
Yeah? Like what? like, because of..
Stephen
This scroll of like, being absorbed, by hundreds of images.
Margot
Yeah,
Stephen
Basically every day.
Margot
Yeah, do you feel like you feel like that was a positive thing or a negative thing?
Stephen
It accelerated something.. I don't think its negative
Margot
Yeah,
Stephen
Uh. I like how there are two sides on Tumblr — there's a stream where everything is collaged together and then there's the highly personalized page. It encourages this reading where.. You're following this unconventional narrative , just choices over time—
I remember being interested in a Tumblr that just posted like pictures of bubble wrap most of the time and then the occasional album art and somehow this was compelling, this pattern and breaking it.. when the album art would get posted it felt like such an upset. Like: 'oh, daring.'
Margot
[laughs] Yeah.
Stephen
Yeah, I think it's just.. a lot of information. And like there's a level of annonymity. Or it feels like the vestige of alterity. Do you know what I mean?
Margot
of what?
Stephen
Like alterity, like uh
Margot
Oh like having um—
Stephen
It isn't as total as the early internet where people would indulge in total fantasy..
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
But is isn't like Instagram. I mean, in terms of the profile being identified with your person.
Margot
Yeah
Stephen
Instagram's kind of in between Tumblr and Facebook.
Margot
Yeah
Stephen
Facebook is absolute identification, you know.
Margot
Yeah. Facebook is awful.
Stephen
Yeah, it's awful.
Margot
I kinda don't understand how people still use it . unless you, like, have like family members you need to write.
Stephen
Yeah. Family members that you need to talk to, but like, not all the time.
Margot
Yeah. But you need to be aware of them. Send them attention in a way that's kind of lower key. I don't think scrolling on Tumblr was necessarily that bad for me. But I felt like it was changing my brain in a way that I didn't necessarily like. Um. And I feel like at this point.. like basically since I like moved I feel like my brain has changed in ways where there's a lot more disorder or — like .. I just can't focus on things —— I find it really hard for me to read books
Stephen
mm
Margot
Maybe it's not true, but I sort of blame constantly scrolling through images for part of that. When I'm on Instagram sometimes, I actually, really do like getting all this information and content that I want. I have a secret Instagram account that I just use to follow embarrassing accounts. Food accounts and pet accounts that I want for inspiration.. And I really like the process of scrolling through that one because, a lot of it is like-- I'll scroll through then I'll click through something and from there I'll find more things and it feels more active. I actually really hate scrolling through my main account. Because I feel like, it's just like..
Stephen
some kind of responsibility?
Margot
yeah, or it's like uh — it's less easy to look for stuff. Because it's already — I'm already following over 2000 people. Um. It's too much. It's like, it gets hard when it's like all people that you know.
Stephen
I think I like stories
Margot
Stories are good.
Stephen
it feels like it's still figuring out like what they are
Margot
mhm
Stephen
Maybe vertical uh cinema is the future.
Margot
Yeah, that'd be weird right ?
Stephen
Yeah, but it feels like, horizontal orientation— Trying to think like, I guess it makes sense that that's what they did, for a movie theatre
the wall. The curtain. But I don't know, I've noticed now in certain stores, they have vertical screens. Currently displaying advertisements.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
Seems inevitable. Vertical movies. Seems like a whole other set of choices you can make.
Margot
Yeah. That is really interesting to think about. I used to really — I really like stories too. It feels like people are more willing to take risks because it goes away
Margot
I also feel like a lot of times, it's like, A less pristine quality of image. Especially if you're filming it on your phone — it's like, not that good.
Stephen
Mm mm. My phone can record the screen. And I like that. like, look what I'm doing with my phone, look what I'm watching—
Margot
That's pretty cool too, I wonder if I should do that—
Stephen
I recommend it.
Margot
Do you have an app that does it?
Stephen
No, I have an iPhone
Margot
Oh ok.
Stephen
And it's a feature that I don't see people using — like they haven't figured it out or something. The button's a little inconspicuous
Margot
I don't see people on Instagram use it so much, but I see people on YouTube use it. Where they'll be facing you and they'll be like, 'Hey guys, y'all wanna swipe on Tinder with me?'
Stephen
Oh wow
Margot
And then they'll have like a little rectangle of what's on your screen next to them there and they'll be like 'Here we go!'
Stephen
Wow that's really daring of them in a way. Like that can make you seem really bad.
Margot
Yeah,
Stephen
I imagined that as a performance.. like if you were in person on stage and doing it with a projector and everyone's just watching you accept or reject. With that stamp graphic that says 'nope'
Margot
'okay now I see how judgemental your are'
Margot
Tinder's pretty awful I think. Because of that immediate.. I don't know. It's like scrolling too.
Stephen
Yeah
Margot
um.
Stephen
it's like you're um it's like the agreement between the users there is to be judged.. and judge. like to make these judgments on each other. where I think on facebook the agreement that you make with each other — is like to stalk each other
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
you're accepting their stalking so you can do it too I guess.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
Neither of those make me feel very good
Margot
Especially Facebook. I can't look at Facebook anymore. I don't use it.
Stephen
I might as well deactivate mine before my birthday.
Margot
Yeah.
Stephen
Because I'm not active on it and people only interact with it on that day.
Margot
Yeah yeah, I also think the last time I deactivated it, I just like logged out for a long time and forgot about it and then when my birthday came up I was like, I need to get rid of it now.
Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
I feel like if you're not there to respond because you don't use it anymore... I mean maybe people don't actually care.. but it feels like you're making some sort of social faux pas or something.
Stephen
Someone invited me to their show on Facebook. I was only aware of it after the fact— and yeah, they were insulted.
Margot
ohh. that sucks
Stephen
Yeah.
Margot
That's why you gotta just text people [laughing]
Have actual words to them. Like invite them with your words one-one-one. Like look at their face and invite them.
Is Raighne asleep?
Stephen
Yeah maybe we should..
Margot
ohhh
Raighne
[hisses like a cat]
Stephen
wow,
Raighne's good at being a cat.